Kulturizmas.net diskusijų forumas

More from Nandi....

PROGESTERONE AND PROLACTIN INDUCED GYNECOMASTIA


Before delving into this subject, I’d like to say first and foremost, that in users of anabolic /androgenic steroids (AAS) the first step in combating the development of gynecomastia, or male breast enlargement, is to eliminate the causative agent: the anabolic steroid . Drug-induced gynecomastia almost invariably resolves on its own when a person quits taking the drugs responsible for it, if caught before permanent fibrosis develops. Unfortunately, most AAS users don’t want to employ this simple approach, for obvious reasons, so the foregoing will all be under the assumption that a person wants to prevent or treat gyno and still continue steroid use .

In the belief that certain anabolic steroids increase prolactin levels as well as act as agonists at the progesterone receptor, some have advocated the use of antiprolactin agents, like bromocriptine, or progesterone receptor blockers like RU-486 to treat AAS related gynecomastia, in lieu of more traditional drugs like tamoxifen .

In truth, the etiology of gynecomastia is unknown and a number of agents including estrogens, progestins, GH, IGF-1, and prolactin may be involved. However, most authorities believe that a decreased (T+DHT)/E ratio is central to the development of gyno, and that blocking the effects of estrogen, or increasing T + DHT levels, is central to ameliorating the problem.

Regarding prolactin, androgens decrease prolactin levels whereas estrogens increase prolactin. Non-aromatizing androgens have never been shown to elevate prolactin levels in humans, but testosterone has, due to its aromatization to estradiol (19). Prolactin secreting tumors, or prolactinomas, are often associated with gyno. But in these cases the prolactin is believed to induce gyno by suppressing testosterone production: “Prolactinomas that are sufficiently large to cause gynecomastia do so as a result of impairment of gonadotropin secretion and secondary hypogonadism”. (20). However, this is a moot issue in AAS users whose gonadotropin secretion is already blunted.

According to research cited in (20), prolactin may have a direct stimulatory effect on mammary tissue development, but only in the presence of high estrogen levels:


The presence of mild hyperprolactinaemia is therefore not uncommon in patients with estrogen excess. Significant primary hyperprolactinaemia, on the other hand, may directly stimulate epithelial cell proliferation in an estrogen-primed breast, causing epithelial cell proliferation and gynaecomastia.

So rather than focusing solely on lowering prolactin levels which may be elevated in users of aromatizing androgens, attacking estrogen should be the first line of action.

GH and IGF-1 are considered critical to the proliferation of mammary tissue. An excellent review of the role played by these hormones, as well as a general overview of gynecomastia can be found here:




Since elevated GH and IGF-1 are considered important to the anabolic effect of AAS, it would be impractical and counterproductive to attempt to prevent gynecomastia by blocking GH/IGF.

Progesterone acts in concert with estrogen to promote breast development, and at least part of any role played by synthetic progestins may be to stimulate IGF-1 production in the breast. But again, blocking the action of progesterone or synthetic progestins is not practical. Specific progesterone receptor antagonists like RU-486 block not only the progesterone receptor, but the androgen receptor as well, and have actually been associated with the development of gynecomastia (21). In any case, progesterone is thought to act on the breast to enhance the effects of estrogen (22) so once again, attacking estrogen is the easiest and most logical approach.

DHT gel (Andractim) or a generic knockoff might help as well. DHT is thought to act as an aromatase inhibitor (23) and perhaps compete directly with estrogen for binding at the estrogen receptor (24). DHT has been used in several case reports and controlled trials to successfully treat gynecomastia. So perhaps a viable strategy would be to combine DHT gel with tamoxifen. I would recommend tamoxifen rather than an aromatase inhibitor due to the simple fact that tamoxifen has been widely used in numerous controlled studies to succesfully treat gynecomastia, whereas the evidence to support the efficacy of aromatase inhibitors is scanty at best.

References:

(1) Price TM, O'Brien SN, Welter BH, George R, Anandjiwala J, Kilgore M. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1998 Jan;178(1 Pt 1):101-7

(2) Bjorntorp P. Hum Reprod 1997 Oct;12 Suppl 1:21-5

(3) Ramirez ME, McMurry MP, Wiebke GA, Felten KJ, Ren K, Meikle AW, Iverius PH Metabolism 1997 Feb;46(2):179-85

(4) Zmuda JM, Fahrenbach MC, Younkin BT, Bausserman LL, Terry RB, Catlin DH, Thompson PD. Metabolism 1993 Apr;42(4):446-50

(5) Tomita T, Yonekura I, Okada T, Hayashi E
Horm Metab Res 1984 Oct;16(10):525-8

(6) Mystkowski P, Seeley RJ, Hahn TM, Baskin DG, Havel PJ, Matsumoto AM, Wilkinson CW, Peacock-Kinzig K, Blake KA, Schwartz MW. J Neurosci 2000 Nov 15;20(22):8637-42

(7) Greer,M. N Engl J Med 244:385, 1951

(8) Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH. N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4

(9) Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1975 Jul;41(1):70-80

(10) Liva SM, Voskuhl RR J Immunol 2001 Aug 15;167(4):2060-7

(11) Ulloa-Aguirre A, Blizzard RM, Garcia-Rubi E, Rogol AD, Link K, Christie CM, Johnson ML, Veldhuis J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1990 Oct;71(4):846-54

(12) Hochman IH, Laron Z Horm Metab Res 1970 Sep;2(5):260-4
.
(13) Steinetz BG, Giannina T, Butler M, Popick F
Endocrinology 1972 May;90(5):1396-8

(14) Ferrando AA, Sheffield-Moore M, Yeckel CW, Gilkison C, Jiang J, Achacosa A, Lieberman SA, Tipton K, Wolfe RR, Urban RJ.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7

(15) Sheffield-Moore M, Urban RJ, Wolf SE, Jiang J, Catlin DH, Herndon DN, Wolfe RR,
Ferrando AA
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Aug;84(8):2705-11

(16) Doumit ME, Cook DR, Merkel RA..Endocrinology 1996 Apr;137(4):1385-94

(17) Bricout VA, Germain PS, Serrurier BD, Guezennec CY.Cell Mol Biol (Noisy-le-grand) 1994 May;40(3):291-4

(18) Ferrando AA, Sheffield-Moore M, Yeckel CW, Gilkison C, Jiang J, Achacosa A, Lieberman SA, Tipton K, Wolfe RR, Urban RJ.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7

(19) Nicoletti I, Filipponi P, Fedeli L, Ambrosi F, Gregorini G, Santeusanio F
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh) 1984 Feb;105(2):167-72

(20) Ismail AA, Barth JH.Ann Clin Biochem 2001 Nov;38(Pt 6):596-607

(21) Grunberg SM, Weiss MH, Spitz IM, Ahmadi J, Sadun A, Russell CA, Lucci L, Stevenson LL J Neurosurg 1991 Jun;74(6):861-6

(22) Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2

(23) Perel E, Stolee KH, Kharlip L, Blackstein ME, Killinger DW
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1984 Mar;58(3):467-72

(24) Casey RW, Wilson JD.
J Clin Invest 1984 Dec;74(6):2272-8


I've highlighted some parts in bold for those of you who have trouble reading several paragraphs

Paskutinį kartą taisė MISTER-X (2013-12-18 15:56)

MISTER-X rašė:

nieko blatno nesugalvojau startas su propu  enantatu susta propa 3 savaites deka nuo pradziu dvigubai 3 ir savaite kaskur ir pasilieka deka susta enantatas poto prijungiu bolda deka nuimdamas ir paleisiu trena prie boldos. savokas zinau zinau kad ir nejuokas . bet paskykit ar reik ai tokio kaip provirono ar tomoxifen  kurso metu su hcg

nesamone kursas.kam imi propa test e ir dar susta?po to laikai E ir susta?
boldos ilgai lauksi kol pajusi-tai ja pries trena kokias bent 4 saw

ne ne, HRS sako kas per nesamone ir susta ir enantata laikyt vienu metu. del frontloado tai aisku viskas ok.

viskas cia gerai laikau e ir susta propas startui  deka ir ilgai lauki bet kik starta darai su dviguba doze  tai pat ir su bolda bus cia  apie viska pagalvoju . smulkmenos nesurasitos tik nenoriu issipliesti . ir seip galvoju  gal isvis palikt ta deka ir bolda kai trena dajunginesiu

nu jo cia jau zopa siaip jau is rasymo stiliaus jau galima atspet.

-

Paskutinį kartą taisė P0werman (2013-12-18 17:18)

Cia ne is principo nepritaria tau, o i lankas su tokiu kursu nuvares kaip turi buti.

Dekos 2x uzkrovimai utiutiu nereikalingi. Test E ir Susta kartu? Pasalinius smagius ir svorio sokinejima turesi, nuo testo lygio sokinejimo. 8 men kursas? Po kurso duok dieve 30-40% islaikysi su adekvaciu recovery jei netiltuosi.

Dar dozes idomu butu pamatyti ir pacio duomenis

P0werman rašė:

HRS rašė:

MISTER-X rašė:

nieko blatno nesugalvojau startas su propu  enantatu susta propa 3 savaites deka nuo pradziu dvigubai 3 ir savaite kaskur ir pasilieka deka susta enantatas poto prijungiu bolda deka nuimdamas ir paleisiu trena prie boldos. savokas zinau zinau kad ir nejuokas . bet paskykit ar reik ai tokio kaip provirono ar tomoxifen  kurso metu su hcg

nesamone kursas.kam imi propa test e ir dar susta?po to laikai E ir susta?
boldos ilgai lauksi kol pajusi-tai ja pries trena kokias bent 4 saw

Propas front loadas, kol TEst E koncentracija pasieks. Geras dalykas.

Nera to, ka cia sakai Enanthatas po 48val jau pike yra. Cia sena per visur paskleista nesamone. Enanthatas ISEINA per 3sav, o pasiekia pika per 48val. Tas pats ir su deca. Jeigu to neatsitinka - sudina padielka varot

whatever rašė:

P0werman rašė:

HRS rašė:

nesamone kursas.kam imi propa test e ir dar susta?po to laikai E ir susta?
boldos ilgai lauksi kol pajusi-tai ja pries trena kokias bent 4 saw

Propas front loadas, kol TEst E koncentracija pasieks. Geras dalykas.

Nera to, ka cia sakai Enanthatas po 48val jau pike yra. Cia sena per visur paskleista nesamone. Enanthatas ISEINA per 3sav, o pasiekia pika per 48val. Tas pats ir su deca. Jeigu to neatsitinka - sudina padielka varot

O kaip del half lifes? Esteriai tam ir lipinami

Testosterone Enanthate 10.5 days

Enanthate: Chemical Structure C7H14O2.
Also referred to as heptanoic acid; enanthic acid; enanthylic acid; heptylic acid; heptoic acid; Oenanthylic acid; Oenanthic acid. Enanthate is one of the most prominent esters used in steroid manufacture (most commonly seen with testosterone but is also used in other compounds like Primobolan Depot). Enanthate will release a steady (yet fluctuating as all esters are) level of hormone for approximately 10-14 days. Although in medicine enanthate compounds are often injected on a bi-weekly or monthly basis, athletes will inject at least weekly to help maintain a uniform blood level.

Sveiki. buvo daryta susta 6sav i sav po 250 ir metanas simboliskai, dabar atsistatymas bus su tamoxa ir tribusteron 90, kurio stiprumas 645mg, nes nebebuvo galimybiu gauti nei clomid nei nolvadex ar proviron. Kiek man reiktu i diena sauti to tribuluso?

buda rašė:

Sveiki. buvo daryta susta 6sav i sav po 250 ir metanas simboliskai, dabar atsistatymas bus su tamoxa ir tribusteron 90, kurio stiprumas 645mg, nes nebebuvo galimybiu gauti nei clomid nei nolvadex ar proviron. Kiek man reiktu i diena sauti to tribuluso?

ne zoleles vartojai tai ir ne zolelem atsistatinet reik

buda rašė:

Kitaip nesigavo, pastais zaist nenoriu

Gal busi malonus ir paaiskinsi kuom skirias tamox nuo nolvos?